Darby Vannier, with over 20 years of experience, is a seasoned leader adept at building and growing organizations. As President & CEO of Indispensable Leadership Group, he excels as an executive coach, consultant, speaker, and fractional COO, focusing on strategic and leadership development. He has led effective teams of more than a 100 employees, coached others into their own leadership positions, and created stability during challenging organizational transitions. Darby built his career on the philosophy that developing the right people is the key to success.
Learn more at www.beindispensable.com.
Questions
· Even though we read a very short snippet of your journey, your little bio, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about how you got from where you are to where you are today.
· Your book titled, The Indispensable Leader. So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about that book? What was your intention when you wrote the book? What is the book about? Who is the book geared towards and kind of what was your sentiment when you were putting it all together?
· Which role do you think is more effective, the manager’s role or the leader’s role?
· Now in the book, you also talk about, which I found this part really fascinating that you should be curious, and you should engage curiosity. Explained to us a little bit about what you meant when you said, engage or encourage curiosity and being curious as a leader.
· In the book, you also mentioned the whole conscious competence model. So, I’d love for you to kind of just explain that to the audience as well, the four phases and then the example that you gave to reinforce the concept.
· Could you also share with our listeners, what is the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?
· Can you also share with our listeners, maybe one or two books that you’ve read, it could be a book that you read recently, or even one that you read a very long time ago, but it had a great impact on you.
· Can you also share with us what’s the one thing in your life right now that you’re really excited about? Either something you’re working on to develop yourself or your people.
· Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you get derailed or you get off track, and the quote kind of helps to get you back on track.
· Where can listeners find you online?
Highlights
Darby’s Journey
Me: Now Darby, even though we read a very short snippet of your journey, your little bio, we always like to give our guests an opportunity to share in their own words, a little bit about how you got from where you were to where you are today.
Darby shared that it’s kind of a diverse career actually. So, he started off in retail, actually kind of in the entertainment industry, working as a manager at a 22-screen movie theatre, which is an interesting industry, especially back at that time when it was before digital movies and everything, and everything came in on natural celluloid film and everything.
So, yeah, 22 screen movie theatre, they would serve 1000’s of people a day and that was an interesting experience getting started because it definitely was jumping right into that retail type environment, bringing in at that point, you’re talking about most of their employees were high school or college aged students and, and so that’s just a different level of team member that you’re managing.
From there, he kind of jumped even further into retail, he actually became a store manager for Kinkos at the time, so the print shop at Kinkos, which is now FedEx Office, but at the time, it was still Kinkos. And at that time, all the Kinkos were 24-hour stores, like they never closed, didn’t close on any holidays, didn’t close any hours, nothing. So, that was definitely a learning experience he will say, managing a 24 hour a day business from that standpoint.
And he did that about 6 years and then moved into the non-profit world where he took over as CEO of an International Livestock Association, actually for alpacas of all things. And it’s always an interesting story because he tells people when he got the interview for the job, he had to look up what an alpaca was because he had a general idea that it was like a llama, but he didn’t exactly know what it was, so kind of entered into a whole new realm there. And he did that for about 11 years where he reported directly to a board, grew that organization, fixed a lot of things in that organization, and then grew that organization. And then they actually went through a merger process and merged with another national organization. And he took over as CEO of the newly created merged organization for that industry.
And then from there, he decided, he’s kind of ready to be done with this non-profit thing, and he exited non-profit, went back into the for-profit world, joined a company that does leadership development, strategic planning, executive coaching, that sort of thing, because he’s always been passionate about leadership, and did that for about 7 years.
And then last year decided he’s going to break off and do his own things. He had a company established previously for some consulting and stuff that he had done and he just expanded that and started offering fractional leadership services and executive coaching on his own and have built that up from there. So, still working on that and that’s kind of gets us up to date.
About Darby’s Book – The Indispensable Leader
Me: Now, as part of this journey, you are also an author and your book is titled, The Indispensable Leader. So, could you share with our listeners a little bit about that book, I do have some questions I want to ask specifically, but I kind of just want to hear in your own words, like what was your intention when you wrote the book? What is the book about? Who is the book geared towards and kind of what was your sentiment when you were putting it all together?
Darby shared that the book is really geared towards anybody, he wouldn’t even say young leaders, he would say anybody who’s really either starting out in leadership, leading other people or even if they have been leading people and they just want to have some experience and some knowledge to refine maybe their leadership style.
And it’s kind of one of those things, he’s kind of kept stories over the years throughout his career, because he’s sure you have experienced throughout your career, you encounter interesting things, he’ll just put it that way, some challenging things and some difficult things, and then some really exciting things.
So, he had lots of things that he has accumulated throughout his career that he felt like these were good learning experiences for him at the time, and had he had this information when he was starting out being a leader, it would have been highly beneficial.
So, in the midst of COVID, back in 2020, when everything kind of shut down, and we all had more time, because we were staying home and everything, he decided that seems like a good time to start writing a book. So, that’s when he started on the book.
And the book really kind of goes down the path of taking this idea, he started off the book by basically saying, you hear people say this question….”Are you a manager? Or Are you a leader?”
And he really attacks that and he say, we’re really looking at that wrong, because he thinks that’s the wrong question. It assumes that people who would probably consider themselves managers of things, cannot be good leaders and that’s not the case. He knew a fair number of people who definitely consider themselves managers, who are really spectacular leaders as well.
So, he kind of asked people to look at it a little bit differently and what he thinks people mean is actually more of are you more manager oriented? Or are you more visionary and entrepreneurial oriented?
And if you think about that as a spectrum, everybody exists somewhere on that spectrum. And you don’t want to be at the far end of either end of that because you don’t want to be too high visionary, that you just come up with a lot of ideas and nothing gets done. But you don’t want to be too far managerial where you only care about checking off your list, and you don’t really care why you’re doing it.
So, what he basically asked people to do is think about this more like a Venn diagram, where you have two intersecting circles and let’s take the best traits of both manager and visionary archetypes, and create the best possible leader that you can be because there’s only a certain amount of things that you have access to yourself, there’s only a certain amount of things that you can gain yourself.
So, let’s find those best things and then let’s try to release the bad things so the bad traits of those archetypes so that we don’t fall into those ruts as well. And he kind of goes down that journey and he uses a lot of stories from his career to illustrate various points on leadership and talking about mentorship and some of those things as well so that people can gain that knowledge that he didn’t necessarily have at the time as he was going through it.
The Effectiveness of the Manager’s Role and the Leader’s Role
Me: So, I like the fact that you spoke about, are you a leader or a manager, but even outside of that you talk about in the book, just visionary leaders and I’m not sure what was the other term that you had outside of visionary? Managers.
So, can you just differentiate, I know you said, we look on it from a different perspective. But if we were to put it in terms of hierarchy, or better yet, in terms of in an organization, if you really want to motivate people, get them to do what you want them to do without having to literally stand up over them with a stick over their head saying, “If you don’t do this, this is the sanction that’s going to be enforced.” Which role do you think is more effective, the manager’s role or the leader’s role?
Darby shared that he would actually say both are important and it’s good to have a mix of both types of individuals within an organization.
Here’s the reason why. So, people with managerial characteristics who fall more on that side of the spectrum are people who are very process oriented, they’re usually very organized, they’re the ones who are able to look at something and say, here’s how it’s going to get done. They can outline the 50 steps it’s going to take to get there. They’re about creating a list and checking off the things and getting stuff done. They’re the ones that are talking about, what are we going to do? And how are we going to do it?
And sometimes they don’t always care about the why they should and that’s what he means by making sure that they try to pull in the best traits of both worlds. But those are the folks who are going to get stuff done for you. And they are the folks who can execute on a vision. So, basically, they can take a vision of a founder or a visionary and they can translate that vision into the action steps that it’s going to take to accomplish it.
So, on the visionary side, you have to have visionaries as well, because the high visionary people, those are the folks who are generating lots of ideas, they’re coming up with five or ten new ideas every day, they’re usually very passionate about their ideas.
Oftentimes entrepreneurs are visionaries, because that is the type of individuals who are drawn to starting a business and taking that risk and everything. Because in their minds, when they think of an idea, when they envision something, it’s done like we’re there, and it is done. They’re the ones that are more going to be talking about why are we doing something, like they want to be able to explain and show their passion for why is it that we want to accomplish whatever it is that they’ve come up with.
The difficulty you can run into with a visionary though is, is that they tend to move on very quickly, because if you get a very high visionary person, they only love generating new ideas, they don’t want to talk about how to get there, they just want it done.
So, that visionary needs to have people who are more managerial in nature so that they can actually get stuff done. And in most companies, you almost have to have two top individuals who are one is one and one is the other.
That’s why you often see a CEO whose high visionary and you see a COO who is the person who executes and those two individuals have to have a high amount of trust, because they will piss each other off and that’s the bottom line.
Because what will happen is, is that COO who’s more process oriented, who’s the one going, “Okay, there’s these 50 problems we have to solve before we can get there” they are going to be like saying slow down and pump the brakes, we got to back up here.
And the high visionary CEO is the one saying, “No, we got to move forward. And I want to do all these things, and everything.”
So, in order for their company to be highly successful, you almost have to have that mix. You see this with celebrity leaders he’ll call him. So, people like Steve Jobs, for example, it’s well known that he was very high visionary, brilliant guy, came up with amazing things, had very high expectations, very passionate about his industry.
But he learned very early on, he basically lost his company initially, before he came back many years later, he learned very early on that he needed to have people that could execute those ideas, because he just wanted to spend time on generating ideas, he needed an execution team as well.
So, eventually, he figured out he had to have individuals who worked with him that he trusted, that could execute those ideas that could challenge him and slow him down, he would on the opposite side of that push them forward. So, it’s this weird balancing act. So, every company needs to have a good mix of both in order to be successful.
The Art of Being Curious as a Leader
Me: Now in the book, you also talk about, which I found this part really fascinating that you should be curious, and you should engage curiosity. And curiosity sometimes I think can be misinterpreted, sometimes, for example, people will think that curiosity I find is being inquisitive, it’s a similar adjective but inquisitive for some reason connotates, almost you being concerned or asking questions about things that should not concern you. But I do believe that that’s how we learn right? About asking questions, exploring, experiencing. Explaine to us a little bit about what you meant when you said, engage or encourage curiosity and being curious as a leader.
Darby shared that it certainly can mean inquisitive and that is something that it can mean. But when he talks about being curious and when he coaches leaders and encourage them to be curious, what he’s really trying to do is encourage folks to be lifelong learners, like he wants you to be curious about new things, go read books, go meet new people, go join a group that you wouldn’t necessarily join because by gaining those additional experiences, and that additional knowledge, you’re only going to grow as a leader. So, he’s very big on making sure that folks that he coaches and himself, do not get stagnant.
And what that means is you have to be engaged, you have to be engaged in what you do. You have to be engaged in your industry, you have to be engaged in life. So, sometimes it’s professional development, and you’re joining an association or you’re reading a book or whatever.
Sometimes it might be personal development where you’re learning a new language or travelling to a country that you’ve never been to so that you can gain that experience because all of those things are important. They are going to make you a much, much better well-rounded leader, especially as he speaks to college students every now and then.
And as he speaks to college students, that’s one thing that he talked to them about is gain a broad set of experiences because a lot of us really end up, in the United States, a lot of folks who go to college end up going to college nearby home, so, they’re exposed to, yes, a new set of people, but it may be very similar to what they’re used to. So, he encourages people to get out of your comfort zone and go do some other things because the more experiences you have, the better leader you’re going to be.
Certainly, looking back at his career, he’s sure as you look at your career, every single thing that he dealt with and went through, all of that past history really made him into the leader that he is today. And everything that he’s doing today will make him into the leader that he is in five years, that’s the bottom line.
So, you got to have that curiosity, if you don’t, you’re going to end up stagnant, you’re not going to really grow as a leader, you’re probably not getting promoted up very much. In most industries, you really do need to be curious so that you can continue to expand as well.
Me: Yes, I totally agree that you should definitely be open to learning and from everything that you do, it definitely adds to who you are today, as you said, what you’re doing now is building for where you’re going be five years from now.
Conscious Competence Model and the Four Phases
Me: In the book, you also mentioned Darby, and I was exposed to this many years ago when I had done a leadership course myself, the whole Conscious Competence Model. And I liked the example that you gave with the baby. So, I’d love for you to kind of just explain that to the audience as well, the four phases and then the example that you gave to reinforce the concept.
Darby shared that this is something that really helps in coaching as well, because it’s something that everybody goes through, but they don’t really pinpoint that they’re actually going through it.
So, the idea here is there’s four phases of competence. And you really start off no matter what it is, in some new experience, in some new activity, you start a new job, you learn how to drive, whatever it is, you start off this idea as being unconsciously incompetent, which means you’re incompetent at whatever you’re doing, and you don’t even know you’re incompetent at it. And that’s a big problem because then you’re doing things and you don’t even know you’re doing them wrong.
So, the idea is, hopefully somebody will point out to you or you’ll eventually move into the idea of conscious incompetence. And that’s really where you’re still incompetent at it, but you recognize that you’re incompetent at it. So, you know, you’re doing it wrong, it’s kind of a situation, you know that you don’t know something.
And then after that, the idea is that you move into conscious competence, which means that you’re competent at it, but you have to think about it all the time, it’s not become a habit, like you have to actually think about whatever the activity is. So, if you think about when you’re learning to drive, this is a good thing. Or this is a thing we encounter, you have to constantly think about turning your turn signal on or stopping at the stop sign or stopping at the light or seeing the light turn yellow, or whatever that is, you are at that point consciously competent. So, you can do it, but you got to think about it all the time.
The last phase is really where you want to get to, especially with regard to leading people, you want to get to unconscious competence, where it is that you are competent at something and you don’t have to constantly think about it, it just happens. So, this basically is the idea of it becomes habit.
There’s actually an author named Charles Duhigg, he wrote a book called The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business, it’s a spectacular book, but he talks about habit loops where your brain is set up so that it creates these habit loops out of things that you do regularly. And that’s how you end up, if you’ve ever driven a car, and then you’re driving along, and sometimes you’re like, I don’t remember the last five minutes, and it kind of freaks you out. That happens because of that, because your brain can handle that sort of thing. And basically, has created a habit loop.
It’s the same reason when he left his position last year, and he was no longer going to the office on a regular basis, your habit loop changes. So, normally my habit loop for driving to the office was the same every day, he would do the exact same thing, the exact same route, whatever it was, well, on two different occasions, at the end of the year, last year, he was driving in the direction of where his old office was. And he looked up and pretty soon, like he’s driving towards the office, he’s going the whole wrong direction for where he was headed. But his brain engaged this habit loop that his brain thought, “Oh, you’re doing the habit loop, we haven’t done in a while to go to the office.” And then he ended up on the entirely wrong road and everything because he was going to the office. But that’s the idea of unconscious competence that you want to get to is be able to create those habits so that things just happen for you on a regular basis.
Me: So, just want to remind our listeners, Darby’s book is out, available on all platforms that you would want to purchase a book from, I would definitely recommend that you go and consume some of the great content he has in it. I haven’t fully finished reading it, but the parts that I have been able to garner were really, really insightful. And he was able to share a bit of it with our listeners in the conversation today. So, definitely a must have read for 2024. Thank you so much for sharing Darby.
App, Website or Tool that Darby Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business
When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Darby shared that from his perspective, it’s LinkedIn just because of the industry that he’s in. It is definitely the one online resource he could not live without. There’s a lot of things out there, of course, especially with social media, and everything nowadays, it really depends on the industry individuals are in but for him, LinkedIn is it and definitely those who are listening, you can find him on LinkedIn, he will connect with you just search for Darby Vannier, and he’s happy to connect with you on LinkedIn as well.
Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Darby
When asked about books that has had a great impact, Darby shared that there is lot of books that certainly he has utilized over the years. But there is one book that he has bought and given away more copies of this book than any other book.
And it’s a book called Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking, it’s by a woman, her name is Susan Cain. And it’s about kind of leading as an introvert. And the reason that he liked it is that he knows it doesn’t always seem like it to individuals when he does these podcasts that he loves to speak to people and stuff like that. But he’s a pretty big introvert. And it was the first book that he read that he was like somebody actually gets him.
So, she kind of talks about what it’s like to be an introvert and how it’s kind of a spectrum. And there are certainly individuals who are introverts who have no desire to speak to people, for example. Whereas, he loves that, if he gets a group of 1500 people to speak in front of great, he’s happy. Now, he doesn’t want to step down off the stage and talk to you one on one really, afterwards, he’ll do it. And you won’t necessarily know that he’s uncomfortable. But that’s not his comfort zone.
So, every introvert’s a little bit different and it’s more about how your energy is recharged. So, his energy is recharged by quiet time and being alone. He has no problem going on a vacation for a few days and being by himself the entire time and not talking to anybody, that would freak out an extrovert. But the reason he loves the book is and that he’s given it to both introverts and extroverts. And the reason it’s important for extroverts to read as well is you work with a lot of introverted individuals and this world we live in is catered to extroverts. And it can be incredibly difficult for those of us who are introverts to live in. And we are forced to adjust to you all.
So, he encourages extroverts to read this book as well, because you really learn a lot, especially as you lead and manage people, it will help you better manage individuals, it will also help you understand how to take advantage of utilizing the skills and the experience of introverts that maybe an extrovert doesn’t necessarily have. So, from a professional standpoint, he always recommends, he also recommend it for individuals who are married, who have spouses who maybe are the opposite of them, because it will help you to totally understand your spouse a lot more as well.
What Darby is Really Excited About Now!
When asked about something that he’s excited about, Darby shared that he’s still under a year on totally breaking out on his own and building his own company. So, building his business is what he’s really passionate about right now. He’s working on a new speaking topic regarding the impact that leaders make in the world and even over interactions that they might have considered insignificant. So, it’s kind of like the ripple effect, so he’s working on this talk and he’s excited about that as well to be able to talk to folks about that.
And then just really working to help each one of his fractional leadership clients be as successful as possible. It is so amazing to be able to work with multiple clients and see individual companies continue to grow and scale and to have a part in that as well.
Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Darby Uses
When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Darby shared that he doesn’t really have a quote, but he kind of have more of a philosophy and his philosophy with this. And he uses this again when he coaches other leaders too is, “Everything is temporary. And the one thing you have to remember is, is that everybody around you is going through their own stuff.” So, he always encourages people to be kind when you’re dealing with other individuals, because you don’t know what’s going on in their lives, no matter how well you think you know them, you don’t know everything that’s going on. So, as he encounters adversity, he tends to kind of revert back to, “Okay, let’s control what I can control. And then I need to let the other stuff go.”
He certainly has had multiple times in his career where he’s had some very difficult situations that he’s dealt with professionally. And that’s what he’s come back to is okay, can you control this particular thing that’s happening? No. But you can control these other two aspects of it and you can make sure that you do those things really well.
And what he has found is if he does that, and he just remember that this is just one more piece of experience in his life and in his career, part of that past history that he said that makes us all who we are, if he can remember that, then it’s usually easy to get through those things. Not that it’s not a challenge, still can be a challenge, still can be stressful, but it does definitely help you as you move through those challenging times.
Me: All right. So, we will definitely have that summary of what you shared with us in terms of that, quote, or that thought, that helps to get you from one stage to the next if for any reason you feel derailed.
Where Can We Find Darby Online
Website – www.beindispensable.com
Facebook – Indispensable Leadership Group
LinkedIn – Indispensable Leadership Group
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/darbyvannier/
Me: Now Darby, thank you so much for hopping on our podcast today and sharing all these great insights from your book, as well as all of the experience and exposures that you’ve had over the years that have crafted the person that you are today and the invaluable knowledge and experience and coaching that you’ve been able to offer to your clients. And so, the information that you shared with us was extremely valuable. The examples that you gave, the characteristics and the comparison as it relates to having a bit of both is critical to the organization success as a manager and a leader was really, really, really insightful and I just want to extend a great amount of gratitude to you for taking time to share with us today.
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Links
• The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business by Charles Duhigg
• Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking Susan Cain
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