Adam Bryant is a Senior Managing Director and Partner at the ExCo Group, where he works with hundreds of senior leaders and high-potential executives. As the creator and former author of the iconic “Corner Office” column in The New York Times, Bryant has mastered the art of distilling real-world lessons from his hundreds of interviews and turning them into practical tools, presentations and exercises to help companies deepen their leadership benches and strengthen their teams.
He also works with executive leadership teams to help drive their transformation strategies based on a best practices framework he developed for his widely praised book, THE CEO TEST: Master the Challenges That Make or Break All Leaders.
Questions
• We always like to ask our guests in their own words, could you share a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got to where you are today.
• What would you say the ratio was in terms of gender, and even generation in terms of the number of CEOs that you interviewed? Would you say you got a wide cross section of different generations? And would you say it’s more of a male to female higher ratio, or vice versa? Or do you think it was balanced? And did you find any differences based on those considerations that I just mentioned?
• What would you say are three overarching themes that you’d have picked up or trends that you picked up from those interviews?
• What are some ways that you believe the leaders can help to reinforce at least to strengthen any doubts that employees may have to ensure that they recognise that the technology, that artificial intelligence is not there to get rid of them, but rather to make their jobs easier.
• Could you also share with our audience what’s the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business?
• Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that you have read that have had a great impact on you? It could be a book that you read a very long time ago, or even one that you’ve read recently.
• Now, we have a lot of listeners who are business owners and managers who feel sometimes that their products and services, of course, are the best, but sometimes they lack the constantly motivated human capital. And so, if you’re sitting across the table from that person, what’s the one piece of advice that you would give them to have a successful business?
• Now, could you also share with us what’s going on in your life right now that you’re really excited about? Either something you’re working on to develop yourself or your people.
• Where can listeners find you online?
• Now, before we wrap our episodes up, we always like to ask our guests, do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you will tend to revert to this quote if for any reason you got derailed, or you got off track, the quote kind of helps to get you back on track.
Highlights
Adam’s Journey
Adam shared that he was a journalist for 30 years, 18 years he was at the New York Times, spent a lot of years as a business reporter and interviewed a lot of CEOs. And he just found over time, the more he spent with CEOs, the more he wanted to set aside the usual questions people ask of CEOs about their company strategy and their products and services and things like that. And just ask them kind of how do you do what you do? And how did you learn to do what you do?
So, he rolled that impulse up into this very simple “What if” in 2009 and it was what if I sat down with CEOs, and never asked them a single question about their companies? And instead just ask them about personal leadership lessons they’ve learned over the course of their lives and how they think about all the universal challenges of leadership, like hiring and building teams and culture and all those things. So, that was kind of the initial idea, and sort of brought him very much into the leadership space.
So, he did that for a decade, interviewed more than 525 CEOs, started writing books and teaching leadership and all that was a side project in addition to his day job managing teams of reporters at The Times. And he left The Times 6 years ago to join his current firm, the ExCo Group. And as said, their core business is kind of one on one mentoring and leadership development and he’s got 4 interview series on LinkedIn, and continue writing books and interviewing leaders about leadership, not about company strategy. So, that’s kind of the thumbnail.
Gender or Generation Influence on Leadership
Me: So, leadership is your thing, Adam, and I heard that you interviewed 500 and odd people, that’s a lot of people to be talking about. And I can imagine that, what would you say the ratio was in terms of gender, and even generation in terms of the number of CEOs that you interviewed? Would you say you got a wide cross section of different generations? And would you say it’s more of a male to female higher ratio, or vice versa? Or do you think it was balanced? And did you find any differences based on those considerations that I just mentioned?
Adam stated that he appreciates the question. And it was the 500 plus for the New York Times, and with all the interviews that he’s been doing on LinkedIn since, he’s now passed the 1000 interview milestone, but to your question. So, he told the story of how he created the Corner Office column based on that simple “What if” and the other sort of guiding principle he set for himself from the very start was that he was going to embrace diversity in every sense of the word – race, gender, nationality, for profit, not for profit, size of company, really want to get as much of a cross section as he could. Interviewed a couple of leaders from Jamaica as well, a guy named Lloyd Carney, who ran Brocade Communications.
And so, his goal was very much to not just go down this sort of fortune 500 list of CEOs, because then it’s going to be overwhelmingly white males, of course. And he really wanted to get a complete view of leadership.
And to your question about patterns that he was looking for, he thinks there are pretty clear patterns, like talking to young CEOs who run tech companies in Silicon Valley is a slightly different conversation than somebody who’s running at Fortune 20 company, for example.
But on the specific question of gender and being in first couple of 100 interviews he did, he’s always sort of looking for patterns and sometimes when he would give talks, people would say, “Have you noticed any differences between men and women leadership styles?” And he has to say, where he comes down is that he doesn’t, there’s just too many exceptions to the generalizations and stereotypes that people have about men and female leadership styles. So, to the point is like there’s so many exceptions that for him, the generalizations and stereotypes do break down at the sort of CEO level.
People have written a lot about it and talk a lot about how one of the differences between men and women when they’re coming up in their careers that women will sometimes feel like they need to be 100% qualified for a job before they go for it. Whereas men are much more willing to raise their hand even if they’re not ready. And that may be true. And there’s a lot of research around that. But for people in the CEO role and their leadership style, he really didn’t see the difference, to be clear, not in terms of whether they were the same, they had different leadership styles, but just around EQ or IQ or extrovert, or introvert or different styles, it didn’t break down along gender lines for him.
Three Themes/Trends Identified From Leadership Interviews
Me: Now, you said you’ve way surpassed 1000 mark as it relates to CEO interviews, especially with your LinkedIn profile of interviews added to that. Across the many different interviews you’ve done, I imagine for CEOs across many different industries, what would you say are, let’s say three overarching themes that you found that is critical for a leader to be successful, especially if the leader is trying to ensure that customer experience is one of the KPIs that they believe in, not just about operational of the business or making the profits, but having a culture where people value the internal customer experience and of course, there’s some, I would say, measurement, or some assessment that’s being done to ensure that it’s been transcended to the external customers as well. What would you say are three overarching themes that you’d have picked up or trends that you picked up from those interviews?
Adam stated that it’s a great question about what are sort of the common themes that through lines from all the interviews. And he’ll start with the idea of simplifying complexity, which he thinks is an art form, it’s a skill. And he doesn’t think you can be a CEO or an effective leader if you’re not good at simplifying complexity, there’s a lot going on in the world, in different industries, inside your company and he really feel like it is a leader’s job to be able to stand in front of their entire team at an all hands meeting or on a zoom call, and just answer those really simple questions that frankly, little kids ask in the backseat of the car, like, “Where are we going? How are we going to get there? When are we going to get there? And not everybody does that.
We’ve all encountered people who actually seem to add more complexity to things, but you’ve got to be able to simplify complexity and boil it down to the 3 or 4 things that are really going to matter at your company. And he just thinks that’s a really critical skill and depending on the nature of your business, but if you are in a customer service business, and that’s crucial to your success, then you’ve got to be really clear about how that is going to drive your success and you can’t be the leader who says we have 20 priorities and customer service is one of them. If it really is critical to driving your success, it has to be one of a hit handful of key priorities and there’s got to be a way to measure it, you have to talk about it all the time, you have to role model it, and just keep shining that bright spotlight on why it’s important. So, he thinks that’s one.
In terms of a couple of other things, because people often wonder, like if I want to be a CEO? Like how do I get to the corner office?
And he finds people are often trying to think of like, well, what’s the right path? And they wonder, you know, am I on the right path if I want to get that job. And based on all the interviews he’s done, he’s come down on the idea that there really is no right path per se, directionally, there’s obvious things if you want to get to a certain place, you have to be moving in the broadly in the direction toward that. But in terms of the specific path, it’s not about sort of checking boxes and getting certain titles, but the thing that has really struck him about all the leaders that he’s interviewed is that they make the most of the path that they are on.
So, it’s not like they’re wondering, am I on the right path? It’s whatever they are doing, they’ve realized that there are life lessons and leadership lessons everywhere, and you can always be learning. And to him, that’s one of the skills that really sets people apart that whatever experience they’re having, and the metaphor he likes to use is that your experience is like this sort of wet towel, like it absorbs all this experience. But then, what do you do with that, and he thinks the best leaders take that talent, they sort of twist it and wring it, and just get every last drop of insight and lesson around it, from it. Because, again, there are lessons everywhere, you can learn from a bad boss, you can learn from a good boss, you can learn from watching teams.
And so, the really high performers to him is they’re always making time to process and reflect and say, “Okay, what did I experience? What did I see? What are the patterns? What are the lessons that I can learn from that?” And the final point he’ll make in terms of how you succeeded, we could talk about this for hours, but just one of them that he thinks really sets people apart is the simple idea of being a good listener. Because he feels like it’s one of those things it’s not taught in business schools, he doesn’t know of any business school that teaches a course on listening, but he feels like it’s really an underappreciated superpower of good leaders.
Because whenever you start thinking, like, I’ve got all the answers, like, that’s when you’re dead in the water. And so, you have to just have a really great skills as listener to get everybody’s best thinking out on the table so that you really know what’s going on in your organization, because history is filled with stories of big companies that got into trouble because nobody wanted to tell the boss the bad news.
So, you’ve got to not only be a good listener, one on one and in team settings, but you’ve almost got to build an infrastructure at your companies so that you know what’s really happening and so that there’s not some like, bad news on the front lines or trouble spots that you’re not hearing about. So, to him, those are the three things that jumped to mind when you asked that question.
Ways Leaders Can Help Reinforce to Employees the True Role of Artifical Intelligence
Me: So, leadership is very important, as it relates to delivering a strong customer experience. And I always tell my clients that mud flows from the top of the stream, so meaning, if the leadership is poor, and customer service, or customer experience is not important to them, it really flows all the way down to the end user, which is the customer, whether it’s digital experience or face to face.
In your experience, especially with so much technology happening out there nowadays, we have Chat GPT, there’s a lot of artificial intelligence coming on board. And I mean up to last night, I was watching the local news, and they had a question poll that they were posing to Jamaicans stating did they feel that their jobs are in jeopardy as it relates to AI being so evolving and coming about.
And so, I wanted your views on as it relates to leadership, what are some ways as I don’t think that people’s jobs are going to become obsolete. I believe that human interaction is something that we will always need, regardless of the industry that you are in, and I believe the technology is there to definitely enhance the experience not to replace it.
But based on your research across the different industries, what are some ways that you believe the leaders can help to reinforce at least to strengthen any doubts that employees may have to ensure that they recognize that the technology, the artificial intelligence is not there to get rid of them, but rather to make their jobs easier?
Adam stated that to him, what Yanique just said is the answer. The point of AI and technology is to take care of much more of the routine things so that we as human beings can add more value and let the machines take care of stuff. So, ideally, it will take care of just those rote aspects of our jobs so that we can figure out better ways to add value, because that’s ultimately what’s about, right, like, how are we individually and as teams creating value for the company.
And in terms of leadership’s role in all this, he often comes back to the power of stories, which is a big part of communication, because he thinks there are some leaders who are good at saying the right words and phrases, and it’s easy to stand on a stage and say customer service is really important. But he thinks telling and sharing stories is how you make that real. And whether that story is about how you as a leader, customer service is really important to you and your experience in your life and the success of the company, and then to sort of tell stories to highlight people on the team who have really gone above and beyond and make them the heroes.
Because he thinks company culture, maybe everybody talks about values, and a lot of culture is determined by who gets fired and who gets promoted and compensation structures. But he often thinks about culture is determined in large part by the hero narratives that the companies tell because if you think of companies like tribes, they are tribes in a sense, that it’s really like who does the tribe hold up as a hero? And what did they do? And if customer service is really key to your success, then how do you as a leader tell the hero narratives, tell the stories, highlight the people that went above and beyond.
To him, that’s one of the ways from a leadership point of view, you make people feel like, “Wow, this really is important.”
And it’s not just the heroes within the company, but also telling the stories about your customers, and how you are helping them and having an impact on their businesses in their lives. So, he often come back to this idea that leaders in many ways are like the storytellers and chief and so they’ve got to tell those stories and share those narratives.
App, Website or Tool that Adam Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business
When asked about online resources that he cannot live without in his business, Adam shared that he probably do spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. He mentioned that sounds like a really obvious answer, but just in the work that he does, and he’s got 4 interview series, and he really believes that LinkedIn is emerged as kind of the Facebook for business, and everybody’s on it.
And people have written about this before, but he also thinks it’s just an important reminder that there’s a lot of toxic stuff on different social media sites and he just stated the blindingly obvious, but he does find LinkedIn is a pretty positive place. Like people are generally pretty supportive of each other, and then they kind of put their best selves there. So, that’s where he spends a lot of time.
Books that Have Had the Biggest Impact on Adam
When asked about books that has had a great impact, Adam stated that in terms just in terms of fiction. He recently finished a book called Demon Copperhead: A Pulitzer Prize Winner by Barbara Kingsolver, he thinks it won the Pulitzer Prize. It’s been a long time since he’s read a work of fiction that had as much insight about human nature and just packed with wisdom. So, he does recommend that.
Non-fiction, he really like adventure books, he has to say. So, stories about whaling adventures in the old days and how people survived, he’s really drawn to stories about resilience and what people do when they’re facing a really tough task. So, he’s often drawn to that.
Advice for Business Owners and Managers Who Have Great Products and Services but Lack the Constantly Motivated Human Capital
Me: Now, we have a lot of listeners who are business owners and managers who feel sometimes that their products and services, of course, are the best, but sometimes they lack the constantly motivated human capital. And so, if you’re sitting across the table from that person, what’s the one piece of advice that you would give them to have a successful business?
Adam shared that to him, it’s about constantly going back to the why. And people talk a lot about mission and purpose. And he’ll be honest, he finds that conversation, especially happened after in the last few years, just companies have been talking a lot about their purpose and mission statements. And some of them he will confess does make him a little sceptical, because they are often very broad and general, and at such a high altitude, they feel kind of disconnected from the business. And very often they’re just some version of make the world a better place.
But he thinks there is an art form to doing that, right, which is to constantly be communicating people and reminding people about the impact that you’re having as a business. Because his prediction and not asking you to bet 20 bucks on his prediction, but he feels like this moment we’re in where purpose discussions are so front and centre, he thinks those are going to be shifting more towards impact over time. And to him, the difference is that when you talk about purpose, that’s really about your intent. And that’s the very internal, you’re basically saying, “When I get up in the morning, this is my purpose. Nobody can question that.” Because you say this is in my heart.
He thinks one of the things that special and unique about business, is that it’s more about impact, which is how do you show that purpose in action? So, to him, that’s much more about like almost proof, like we said, this is our purpose, but this is what we’re doing. We want to show you, we want to be able to document and show you the impact that we’re having.
And he thinks as a leader, we can all get kind of pulled down to just the day to day of the business. But you often have to sort of pick your head up and remind people and just sort of take stock and say, “Look at the difference we’re making in people’s lives.” And when you say those things, they should be tied directly to the business, it shouldn’t feel disconnected. And you don’t have to worry about being so lofty, and everybody’s making the world a better place, you can be very much like look at the difference we’re making for our customers and what we’re doing. Because that helps bring out people’s like, passion and pride. And then you’re going to get that extra effort from them.
What Adam is Really Excited About Now!
When asked about something that he’s really excited about, Adam stated that at a personal level be very mundane at the risk of oversharing, but he’s really focused on ping pong these days.
Me: Really? Are you trying to master it?
Adam stated hardly master it, but he’s sort of living in New Orleans now. And they moved there a few years ago, their two daughters moved there, and so, they joined them. And as he recently passed a birthday with a number six in front of it, he sort of decided he wanted to get back in touch with his inner teenager and start taking up some sports and things. So, he actually has a ping pong coach. He stated that he knows that sounds pretty unusual.
Me: That is brilliant.
Adam stated that he trains with him a couple of days a week. And his metrics scoreboard about whether he’s getting better or not, is he played his son-in-law once a week for a couple of hours, and what’s cool is when you’re 61, and you say, I want to get better at that, and you actually get better at it. That’s pretty cool. So that’s his very personal thing he’s focused on right now.
But much more broadly, he’s been in the leadership field and he’s pretty passionate about it for a couple of reasons. He will say that if you give him a really big magic wand with three things to do it, he would get rid of racism, inequality and bad bosses because there are still too many bad bosses in the world.
And he thinks sometimes we under appreciate what a toxic effect they have on individuals and by extension their families. And that’s not just to be negative about that but what also gets him out of bed is just trying to help people be better leaders for those who do want to be better managers and leaders. And he thinks there’s a huge responsibility and privilege that comes with that.
His approach to leadership, he doesn’t wake up in the middle of the night pretending he’s come up with some new theory, he takes more of a journalistic approach to understanding leadership and interviewing people who are leading and have been leading for a long time. And then what he tries and do is sort of share the insights and the stories and the frameworks and really open up that conversation so that people could say, “Wow, that’s a great tip, I can take that and use it with my own team.” So, if at the end of the day he could make a small contribution and help people become better as managers and leaders, that’s pretty motivating.
Where Can We Find Adam Online
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adambryantleadership/
Personal: https://adambryantbooks.com/about-adam/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/adambbryant
Website: https://www.excoleadership.com/
Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Adam Uses
When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Adam shared that there’s probably a couple that he always falls back on. And he’s heard this from CEOs he’s interviewed, but one of them is that “95% of the worst things that happen to you in your life very often turn out to be the best things that happened to you in your life.” And that’s not to say all of them, right. And some things that happened to you there’s nothing good about them. But when you think back on your life, and sort of those moments of adversity that you’ve faced, very often they did turn out to be like, really important pivot points that helped you grow and build character. And there’s a lot of lessons and insights there. So even though when you’re in the middle of something it feels pretty dark, sort of know that over time, you’re going to learn a lot from that.
And there’s a couple of other short answers. There’s that expression, “You’re either winning or learning. It’s not about winning or losing, but it’s about winning or learning.” So, there’s always lessons that you can and should be taking from whatever adversity you’re going through. If you feel like you’ve failed or disappointed yourself, it’s like that happens to everybody. Right? But the question is, what do you do with it? What is that wet towel of experience that you can then take and ring and say, okay, “What are the insights here and keep squeezing it for that?”
Me: Thank you so much for sharing. We’ll definitely have those two in the show notes of this episode. Well, Adam, we are at the end of our interview, I can’t believe it feels like we just started talking but thank you so much for jumping on this podcast today and sharing all of these great insights and nuggets as it relates to leadership, all of the great information and experiences that you’ve garnered over the years talking to CEOs as you had mentioned from so many different industries from all different walks of life across the world. I am sure that anyone who listens to this episode will pick up at least one thing that they can run with to help them sharpen their leadership skills. So, thank you so much.
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Links
• Demon Copperhead: A Pulitzer Prize Winner by Barbara Kingsolver
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