Episode 102 : How to Transform Your Customer Journey Mapping with Change Management

Jim Tincher, CCXP, is a nationally recognized customer experience thought leader, journey mapping expert, keynote speaker and author. Jim led customer experience programs at Best Buy and United Health Group before launching his innovative CX consultancy, Heart of the Customer, which helps start-ups to Fortune 50 organizations use voice of the customer research to improve loyalty and boost revenue. His book, How Hard Is It to Be Your Customer?, is considered a must-read for CX-focused leaders, and Live Help Now, Support Be Influencer Marketing, CustomerThink, Feedspot, and LitmusWorld have all named Jim a customer experience influencer to follow.


  • Can you tell us a little bit about your journey, how it is that you got to where you are?
  • How is it that you as an expert in this area, could maybe give us some tips as to how an organization can digital look at digitally transforming but ensuring that their team members are also on board with digital transformation?
  • Now, as a customer journey map expert. Could you tell us if you are an organization and you’ve never done journey mapping before or let’s say you did it 5 years ago, what’s the recommended time for you to revisit it, to make sure that all the touch points are operating the way they should?
  • What are your thoughts on embracing the power of being digital to the core to enhance customer experience and improving personalization in the process?
  • What are your thoughts on companies that do have different channels? So they operate on multichannels, but they’re not operating on an omnichannel perspective where everything is integrated, how can they go about doing that and do you think that’s the best approach?
  • How do you get employees motivated? What if they’re like, “They’re bringing in all of these systems, you have to learn all of these new things, and I’m not getting any new pay for it. I don’t feel motivated.” How do you get them engaged, motivated, feel like they’re a part of the process? Do they need to be included in the decision making or is it a case where you just roll it out and say, listen, this is a new path we’re taking?
  • Could you share with us how do you stay motivated every day?
  • Could you share with us maybe an app, website or tool that you use in your business that you absolutely can’t live without?
  • Could you share with us maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you? It could have been a book that you read many years ago or maybe about that you read recently that has read had a great impact on you.
  • Can you share with us maybe something that you’re working on now – it could be something that you’re working on to develop yourself or something that you’re working on to develop your people.
  • Where can they find you online?
  • Do you have a quote or saying that during times of adversity or challenge that you will typically revert to this quote – it kind of helps you to refocus, get you back on track? Do you have one of those?


Jim’s Journey

Jim shared that he doesn’t know why he has always been focused on the customer. He remembered his very first job out of school; he was in technical support and on vacation he wanted to go visit a customer where he was visiting his now wife at her home in Connecticut. And he wanted to go visit a customer while he was there and people said, “Why? Go on vacation.” But it’s just the way he has always thought. He went from there to small business and went to Best Buy. If you’re in small business, you have to be customer obsessed or you don’t survive. Similarly, Best Buy very much focus on that.

And then he went to a new organization and he naively thought everybody was customer focused and found out there were other methods, literally nobody in a marketing or product development group had ever met a client and he was amazed by that. And as a result, they had the most complex products in the marketplace because they were building the products they wanted to buy. And their customers were giving them feedback that this is way too complex, people don’t want all this all these features, that they want it nice and simple.

But again, because they didn’t have customer feedback, they were building really complex products. And it really came to light when they went out and talked to their customers. So, they divided them into customers who are really successful with their products and those who are struggling. And he created a program called Hug Your Customers, which, by the way, sounds really good until you have a sales rep call a customer to say, “Hey, we want to do a Hug Your Customers meeting with you.” They’re Minnesotan’s, they don’t normally hug, it gets a little awkward.

So, they changed to collecting best practices. But he started taking their executives out to meet the clients and what they realized was that the clients that were struggling were the ones who were using their materials and following their advice and the ones who are most successful, the ones who are ignoring our advice and making their own materials. Now, that’s a hard lesson, but luckily, because he was bringing the leadership out to hear firsthand, he didn’t have to beat them over the head with that and they learned on their own. And that really has been the foundation of their work today.

Now, what really led for him to start the company is the fact that he got fired a lot because he remembered one VP saying, “Jim, you make a lot of noise.” He does make a lot of noise because they were just so inward focused and he was trying to change the culture.

And one of the things he learned as he was trying to change the culture from the bottom up, and that does not work. You need those pieces, but you have to start with the top and that was one of the lessons that really informed them at Heart of the Customer is that they help an organization think about their customers. They have to engage in leadership from the beginning and that was a lesson he learned the hard way by trying to start with a bottoms up approach.

Me: It’s almost like your experiences have literally helped to mold who you are, drive the different aspects that you’ve envisioned for customer experience, especially with helping your clients to realize their own customer journeys. One of the biggest things that a lot of organizations have been focused on, especially since the pandemic, is their customer journey. They’ve been looking at their customer journey from end to end and they’ve also been looking at how it is that because of the pandemic and we’re literally forced.

A lot of organizations had I think some companies had been proactive enough to look and see that their customer behaviours were changing and they were adapting pretty well. But some companies were still back operating as if it were in 1995, early 2000. And they fully had not transformed a lot of their customer behaviours into how their business functions.

Digital Transformation Tips

Jim shared that’s huge and we should break those into a couple of different pieces. The digital part is accelerating. They had a customer experience event earlier in the week and a speaker from Target who was saying that they’re 2030 goals now have to be realized this year. There was such a move towards digital now with a Coronavirus that’s had causd them to have to pivot very quickly. And they’re seeing that across the board.

What’s beneficial, their clients have already taken the time to learn what their customer needs and what are the moments of truth in the journey so they can build digital platforms that allow customers to be more successful by understanding those moments of truth as well as those friction points. And they find that’s really critical, that if you take a broken process and digitize it, all you get is a broken digitized process and you’re not helping anybody.

So, it’s really critical back there to understand what are those key needs of my customers first? And so, what they’ve been doing is during this time, even if the output is to be digital, which it often is, what’s more important is to understand what are those customers needs in any online or offline environment?

What are their challenges? What are the points of friction today? And to use that to design the digital. We are people first, digital second, and leaders tend to forget that, they seem to think that we’re all digital people and we just need digital tools. No, we need to solve the human need first and use a digital platform to do that.

Me: Ok, so we have to solve the human need first. So, I’d like some practical examples. I see in your just from your bio that retail and healthcare are areas that you have a lot of experience with. So maybe you could give us one from each. Maybe just how it is that you could put the human need first, what does that look like in a real life business example?

Jim shared that although it’s been interesting because their customer base, the Heart of the Customer, has not been so much retail, they do a lot of healthcare work, a lot of B2B and B2C work. So, with business customers or as an intermediary to the customer. But one of the things they are finding across the board in almost any industry is the need for operational transparency. And he’s going to back that up, what does he mean by that?

And it’s really the world’s humankind’s second most awesome invention after fire is the Domino’s Pizza Tracker. It’s amazing how many people they talked to want a Domino’s Pizza Tracker for everything, and they find most organizations are not providing that operational transparency.

So, they’re to go back 5 or 6 years in time, he doesn’t remember when exactly the pizza tracker came out. He can come up with an app that could show you when your dough is put down and who is putting down the dough, and when somebody puts on sauce, somebody puts on ingredients, toss it in the oven. You just said, “Why would I want that? That’s daft.”

But when it showed up, people say, “Oh, I love that, in fact, I want to know if I’m applying for life insurance, I want to know what’s happening.” They call it Operational Transparency and there’s a great Harvard Business Review article on this, very influential to our thinking. But when organizations provide operational transparency to their customers, the customers feel the organization treats them more fairly, even if the outcome is bad, let’s an use example of life insurance. Even if they’re declined, they feel better about the process because they had visibility into it. And it removes a lot of anxiety.

They find that’s true in almost every industry. They work with distributors who are providing materials to their clients, when they can provide operational transparency to when the order is placed, when products are shipped. Amazon clearly does this quite well, in the business environment; it’s not often done as well.

They started to see it coming through a little bit more through some transparency in health insurance. If he submits a claim, he wants to know where that claim is, he wants to be able to see where it’s working its way through, and he wants that transparency. So that’s what they’re finding across the board.

He mentioned that he didn’t answer another part of the question going back, so he wants to circle back. And Yanique asked about the digital piece, but also asked, how do they get people to actually implement and understand customer needs and to actually put in place the processes needed.

And this is critical to their entire practice. They build everything they do around change management. And with that, they have a chapter in the book specifically about how to apply change management principles to journey mapping. Now, a number of years ago, it’s been like 4 years. They did a survey on companies regarding their success in Journey Mapping, and he’s a journey mapping geek, his license plate is literally, “JRNY MAP”

So, last week they drove down to Texas and dropped off the car to his youngest, that would be the fastest plates you have ever seen swapped out because there’s no way Jared wants to have journey map on that car. So, he’s a geek and they did a survey, he thought that everybody, when they asked how successful you were, would give you a 4 or 5, which clearly journey mapping works.

Everybody is going to say it’s successful, not what they found. What they found is that only about 1 out of 3 did that. Another 1 out of 3 gave it a 1 to 3 and another one third said it’s too soon to tell. Now, they just updated the data. They did another survey coming out here, more about journey management and the numbers are even worse. They’re finding that only about 15% are saying that they are really successful. Most, 45%, so that’s literally most are saying it’s too soon to tell which is not suggesting it’s trending well.

If you spend US $125,000, US $150,000 which is what it takes to do Journey Mapping right, and you tell your boss, if your boss asks you, “Hey, did that work?” And you say, “Oh, I don’t know, it’s too soon to tell.” That’s not a good conversation.

They find that most organizations are doing the mapping and they’re not being successful because they haven’t thought about change management. What change management means and they did this research. They found the most important factors in being successful are first of all, knowing what it is you’re trying to map, going after an actual business problem. They’ve had people tell them their business problem is they don’t have a journey map.

That’s not a business problem; they’ve had other people say their biggest problem is their survey scores are low, although that’s not a business problem. We are losing customers, customers are not using us for this one type of product, we have a lot of people calling in, which is costly to them and to us, and those are business problems. So, it starts with going after a business problem because that’s how you engage executives.

Second of all, then is involving customers in the process, which they should not have to talk about it, it’s called customer journey mapping for a reason. They ran across all these consultants and as well as practitioners who think that if you take a bunch of employees, you put them in a room and give them post-it notes, we got a customer journey map. Not true. Well, they found when they do that because that is part of their process early on is that they get really good answers that are wrong.

Everybody thinks they know the customer journey but when they match that up against what customers actually tell them, there is a huge mismatch between the two. Because you are just reacting to part of the journey you see and very few employees can actually articulate the entire journey and are actually missing what’s most important to customers.

So, second part is involving customers. But the third one, which is actually the most important, is who’s on the team. If we go back to this, they don’t involve their digital team and they mapped the journey and they come up with all these new digital items they need, you go to them and say, “Hey, we have this beautiful journey map.” Telling you all these things you need to do differently.

Well, they’re not going to listen to you. Why should they? They’ve got their own list of things. But if you involve them in the process, you get them as part of it, that’s when the magic happens and even more importantly, is involving leadership, getting the leaders to be part of the project, getting them to talk to customers, that’s when you start to embed it inside of a culture.

Me: That makes sense. Would you suggest everybody should be involved, at least all of the different touch points that could possibly impact the customer?

Jim agreed and shared that they usually have about 30 people involved in their projects, sometimes more across the organization.

Me: And let’s say for an organization with that size of maybe 2500 employees, let’s say they are a financial institution, they have a bank, they have an insurance arm, they have an investment arm. In a case like that, if they’re really trying to do a transformational journey it would be recommended that all the leaders from the different business units are involved.

Mike mentioned that it sounds like Yanique has a particular customer or company in mind.

Me: No, not necessarily. But I just want to use a specific example, because I do have some of the persons that listen to this podcast that are in that line of business. So it would be good for them to specifically hear, because sometimes you read books, Jim, and the books speak at a very high level, but they’re not bringing it down on a granular level to where you are in the organization.

“I am the marketing associate in the marketing department and I think if we do this in a digital way it will help to influence our marketing efforts.” But how does that transcend into the entire journey from end to end? And is it connected with the other departments on how it is that they are feeding information to the customers from their units? That’s where I’m trying to get at so that everybody listening understands that it’s not just a responsibility of one department.

Jim agreed and shared that first of all, it comes back to what’s the business problem you’re trying to solve, and likely you’re actually not going to involve all three of those groups because the business problem typically doesn’t go across the bank, the investments and the insurance area, it’s probably more granular. And so, let’s say for example, the business problem. They worked with one bank; let’s use that as an example where their business problem was that always the secondary bank.

So, some other bank was the primary purpose, they were secondary and they isolated it because in the onboarding process, that first 90 days, clients weren’t really learning all they could do with the bank, and so they kept it as a secondary kind of a fund money bank, but they weren’t using it for their primary checking account, their savings account, the credit card.

They typically came in because they needed a separate bank account for some reason, and they stayed with that. So, they wanted to learn how could they create an amazing onboarding process that got customers to learn that they could use this bank for way more than banking?

In that case, they needed to involve clearly the front line; you need to involve representatives from the individual branches because that’s where a lot of the rubber hits the road. You also need marketing, going back to your point about marketing, you have to have marketing there because marketing should be creating a lot of these materials that you’re using for the onboarding. Product, because product can learn what they’re doing and come up with new products that fit that. The contact centre because they need to match as well what’s happening as well as the digital team. So minimum of these 5 teams, all need to be involved.

Me: So, that’s really, really good information. Now, in terms of customer journey mapping, I did a webinar recently and I think one of the questions I asked was how often do they revisit their customer journey map.

Using Journey Mapping In Your Organization

Me: Now as a customer journey map expert. Could you tell us if you are an organization and you’ve never done journey mapping before or let’s say you did it 5 years ago, what’s the recommended time for you to revisit it, to make sure that all the touch points are operating the way they should? Just to give people an idea, because I think a lot of companies think they built this journey map and that’s it, it’s almost like a policy or a procedure that was created in 1970 and it stays there forever.

Jim stated that Yanique was right and shared that the journey does change. They just did this survey, which they’re right now on the analysis of and they found that 90% of the respondents basically stopped there with the mapping. They create two different kinds of maps, they create one which is a change management map, highly graphically, the research is pretty clear, and it’s called The Visual Superiority Effect. If you create a highly visual artifact, people understand it more and they remember it, so they have that one.

Then for some of their clients, they go beyond that where they create a data oriented map which is bringing in the feeds of the operational data, as well as the sentiment data, the surveys, to show how that journey is as a baseline and how it changes over time.

If you do that, that largely answers your question, because as long as the journey is working the same and by bringing the operational data and he should say financial as well, you’re going to start to see is that journey still healthy or are we seeing more cancellations? Are we seeing lower additional products added on? Are we finding business problems are happening because typically the business problems come/originated by a customer problem.

And so, the sentiments part of that, so you’re able to track sentiment over time, hopefully have a journey survey, and have some touch point surveys so you bring that into the living journey map. But you also bring in that operational data so you can see while they’re seeing a lot of calls at this phase of the journey or they’re seeing that their average basket size going back to retail is dropping significantly or increasing. That’s when you need to go back out to your customers, because the working the live journey map is telling you that things have changed and you need to go back and figure out why.

Using Digital to Enhance Customer Experience

Me: Ok, so that definitely does answer some of those questions. Now, in terms of personalization, personalizing the experience for the customer. I know artificial intelligence and augmented reality are some things that companies are incorporating into their experience to make it more personalized. I was watching a video recently where IKEA literally has the augmented reality, you just hold your phone or your iPad up and you can just position the furniture in your house to see what it looks like. So you’re actually almost choosing it without physically going to the IKEA location. What are your thoughts on embracing the power of being digital to the core to enhance customer experience and improving personalization in the process?

Jim shared that in terms of enhancing customer experience and improving personalization in the process is absolutely critical and not far enough along yet. Amazon has spoiled us all; every area we work in, we tell them Amazon is your competitor. If you’re a bank, if you’re a distributor as he mentioned earlier, you’re a health insurance organization, you’re a non-profit, Amazon is your competitor. Not literally, if you’re non-profit, it’s pretty hard to argue that Amazon is taking your funds away.

But the mindset, all of our mindsets are changed by Amazon and that expectation. Amazon gives him a personal experience, therefore, when he’s engaging with another retailer, but also when he’s engaged with his health insurance organization, he expects them to personalize things for him. He expects everybody he interacts with, every organization to give him an Amazon like experience and so as a result, he’s frequently disappointed.

AI (Artificial Intelligence) is opening that up for the rest of us that we find the machine learning specifically allows you to understand patterns of behaviour and build and orchestrate a journey as a result.

Jim Tincher

They have a partner of theirs that does orchestration where you can actually set up individual responses based on needs. And that’s a machine learning platform, although you can incorporate machine learning into it. But what they’re finding in their research is that a handful of companies are doing an excellent job of really personalizing and building the journey on an individual basis even, or at least in a mass customized level. But most are not there today. There’s a huge opportunity.

Me: So there’s opportunity for organizations to improve personalization. Another big thing I found also, Jim, in the whole process of customer experience and enhancing it is having more integration across their channels. I use this webinar platform called Demio and so one of my business channels has expanded as a result of the pandemic. So, I never used to do webinars before, but because of the pandemic and I’m not physically going out to the training anymore.

Of course, I’m using webinars as a platform to reach more people and in doing my research, because I’m a customer service trainer. I wanted to use a platform that was customer friendly, meaning if I had an issue technically or there was an issue with just how to use a platform or what to do. I could message them on their response time would be like instantaneously. And of course, after doing research on speaking to other trainers both here in Jamaica and overseas, I was able to pick Demio. They’re fairly new in the game and there are some features that they don’t have that Zoom has, but one of the things I liked about them was that they were omnichannel and they were integrated.

So it didn’t matter which platform I spoke to them on, what it was, Facebook Messenger, Instagram DM or it was the little chatbot that was directly on their website, that conversation continued on each platform and each person I spoke to was a continuation of the conversation from before, and it just made things so seamless and easy to transact business with them.

Operating an on Omnichannel Where Everything Is Integrated

Jim shared that clearly it’s the best approach, as Yanique just said right there and she’s right. You don’t want to have to think about, “Did I start this with chat, did I start with the bot, where I started?” You don’t care. One of their sayings is, “Thinking is bad. The more you make your customers think, the more at risk you are for losing their loyalty.”

That comes back to the need to be multichannel. He does not want to have a different experience or more importantly, to get different answers if he calls you, than if he chat, than if he uses other methods of interaction. He wants to know he’s getting that same experience across the board.

They find it’s hard because they tend to have a siloed approach to improvement, and that comes back to earlier, that if you don’t engage the leadership and don’t engage the overall organization around this area and again, the parts of the organization that can be part of the solution, then you end up with siloed solutions. If you’re building siloed solutions, you’re going to be in trouble. But if instead you’re taking the time to integrate across them, that’s when you can make a huge difference in not just keeping your current customers are bringing in more because you’re going to keep your base because they like the experience and they’re going to talk to others.

Getting Employees Motivated

Me: So, one of the things that we have to also do, and I know you mentioned it earlier in terms of involving the people, involving the people on the ground, the ones who are in the grassroots every day dealing with the customers, they know some of the challenges that the customers are actually experiencing. But how do you get them motivated? What if they’re like, “They’re bringing in all of these systems, you have to learn all of these new things, and I’m not getting any new pay for it. I don’t feel motivated.” How do you get them engaged, motivated, feel like they’re a part of the process? Do they need to be included in the decision making or is it a case where you just roll it out and say, listen, this is a new path we’re taking?

Jim stated, well, so let’s go back to the change management comment earlier. And again, they’re big believers in involving change management. They find that customer experience, when they involve a change management approach, they have way more impact.

On a business to business level, Jen Zamora from Dow, they’re a client of Jim’s, they have a great approach. She’s been posting every month on LinkedIn, their journey to customer experience and last week’s was about how they incorporate change management into their approach, it’s a great read. Follow Jen Zamora and look at her posts of what they’ve been doing.

Now, in Jim’s case, he likes John Kotter’s approach, which is on structure, but they talk a lot about the ADKAR (Awareness, Desire, Knowledge, Ability, Reinforcement) change model from Prosci. And he likes it because it’s simple but not simplistic. And ADKAR is an acronym. If you want somebody to change, they need to be aware of the need to change. They need to desire to change. They need to know what to change. They need to be able to change. And that has to be reinforced.

He mentioned that he’s going to try to convince Yanique to move away from Jamaica to Minnesota. First of all, you need to be aware of your need to move to Minnesota about how it’s so beautiful there, it’s fantastic, you’ve got to move up there. You need to desire to come up there. You’ve got to say yes, I don’t have any snow boots, I need snow boots, he needs to get you desire that. You have to know how to move there and he’ll work with you to get a moving agency. You have to be able to; you’ve got to be able to find something to move you from Jamaica to up there and you need to continually reinforce why this living in snow is a good thing. So, he has got an uphill battle.

What they find is that most organizations focus on the first A and the K and maybe the second A. So they say, “Yanique, are you aware that you can move to Minnesota, here’s how you can do it and let me give you some training on how to live as a Minnesotan.” But he never took the time to help you understand why Minnesota is a beautiful state and why you’d want to leave Jamaica to come there.

It’s a high bar. But now let’s turn it back to your marketing person. And if you want your employees to use new systems, a lot of groups start with awareness, “Hey, we have a new system.” And then jump right to training. And here’s the training. They didn’t take the time to say, “And this is why this is going to help you. This is why you should want to do that.” Love the ADKAR model because it helps us remember how I built against the desire component and if your changes are not taking place, that’s where he’d look.

How Jim Stays Motivated

When asked how he stays motivated, Jim shared that he’ll tell you; it’s really hard the first few months of the Coronavirus, because even though he’s an introvert, he’s very introverted. He gets a lot of energy off of one to one conversations. A number of years ago like 8, 10 years ago when he was fired from a company, trying to find my new job; he had 133 coffees. Now that doesn’t count lunch, that doesn’t count dinner just strictly 133 just on the coffees and everything else.

And now we bring it to today in March and April was hard because nobody wanted coffee. It’s very easy for us all to pull inside. He gets his energy out of one on one conversations. He loves talking with other customer experience leaders to find out what they’re doing.

And so, one of the things he did this year, it actually started before the Coronavirus, you may have seen Forrester’s prediction that 1 out of 4 customer experience people would lose their jobs this year because they’re not showing business value.

A year earlier, Customer Think came out with the research that showed that only 1 out of 4 programs can show business value. So in January, he got really interested in that and said, well, what is it that separates that 1 out of 4 who are going to be fired from the 1 out of 4 that are who we all want to be, the ones that are really showing impact?

And so this year, they’ve interviewed so far 86 people in customer experience roles. They’ve added a few as well in finance and CEOs to understand what does excellence look like in customer experience. And when he leaves one of those conversations with somebody who’s truly expert, he’s motivated, he’s inspired.

App, Website or Tool that Jim Absolutely Can’t Live Without in His Business

Jim shared that there are two he’ll mention. First of all, they use Microsoft Teams, there’s a way to connect and to use visual, big fan of that. That’s number one, but some way that you can connect and have that camera turned on, that’s important.

The Coronavirus taught us about a new tool that he wants to pitch, he’s not an investor or anything, but he loves it. It’s called Stormboard. And it is an online interactivity white boarding tool that you do not have to train anybody. It’s amazing. The service is really responsive; they have really enjoyed working with that. So if you’re looking at a tool for doing online workshops, they loved them, they’ve been great partners; they’ve been very flexible and willing to teach them how to facilitate. But what they found is that they don’t have to spend a lot of time teaching their clients how to use the tool, they just get in and they start to use it.

Books That Have Had the Greatest Impact on Jim

When asked about books that have had the biggest impact, Jim shared that he just came back from vacation a couple of weeks ago out in Maine and what he does when he goes on vacation, this is geeky. He read books and he read three books and half of three others. But the one that really hit him hard is Leading Change, With a New Preface by John Kotter.

Time called it one of the most influential business books of the last 25 years. And he’s got a great method of walking through it. And so, as he mentioned, they’ve used Prosci in the past, he has read their book and that’s good from an outcomes perspective. What Kotter does, he walks through a process.

First of all, you’ve got to create a sense of urgency. What they find most customer experience leaders failing at is the next step, which is to create a powerful change coalition and then from there creating a vision as a total steps. But it just spoke to him. And yes, he realize that that shows how geeky he is in a book on change management, on the beach spoke to him, but he strongly recommends that book.

The Power of Moments: Why Certain Experiences Have Extraordinary Impact he liked a lot by Chip and Dan Heath and he interviewed one of them for his blog, getting their feedback at Heart of the Customer. And it was interesting because Jim has a little bit different approach in that they they’re all about building positive moments, which he agrees with as well. They don’t like journey maps as much because journey maps also focus on the negative but you have to understand what are the most crucial moments are.

But in there, they also talk about do you want to spend your time fixing problems or creating great interactions? And what they find is that most organizations spend their time fixing problems. But the potential of creating great moments of truth with your customers has nine times the organizational value than fixing problems. Great book.

What Jim is Really Excited About Now!

When asked if he could share something that he’s working on the develop himself or his people, Jim mentioned both, as mentioned, they’ve done 86 interviews so far to understand what is it that leads to excellence in customer experience. And one hint, it does not involve the letters N, P or S, it’s really involving engaging executives, creating a vision.

They are right now in the process of distilling that and hope to be coming out with their own book again, a second book here in probably about 6 months to a year. But they’re learning that there are people out there that are truly transforming their organizations around the customer experience and that there is a process that does it, but that it’s rare and that most organizations are not having the impact. But there are some that are truly transforming their companies around the customer.

Yanique asked when would that be out and Jim shared that they’re suppose to start analysis on the first of the month and do the writing through the end of this year or so, hopefully first and second quarter of next year. But he knows that their original project plan on the last book had them getting done in 2017 and it came out in 2019. But his history is not so good at getting the writing done in time.

Where Can We Find Jim Online

Jim shared listeners can find him at –

Twitter – https://twitter.com/jimtincher

LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/jimtincher/  

Website – www.heartofthecustomer.com

Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Jim Uses

When asked if he has a quote or saying that he would revert to in times of adversity or challenge, Jim shared that he does and it’s particularly poignant during the Coronavirus, and it’s from John le Carré, who’s an English author, who said, “The desk is a dangerous place from which to view the world.” They find a lot of customer experience people don’t actually talk to customers, it’s really important. Has been harder in the Coronavirus, it has to be done virtually but if you want to create an amazing customer experience, it starts by talking to your customers and that quote has inspired him for years now.

Me: It’s so simple and it’s almost like a BFO, like a blinding flash of the obvious, because clearly, how are you going to know what needs to be improved if you’re not talking to the person who you are trying to make the improvements for because you need their input, it can’t be based on what you feel or think. It must be based on their experience. So you would think, a lot of people are doing that, but a lot of companies don’t actually do that consistently.

Jim agreed and shared that a lot of customer experience people don’t even do it consistently, and that’s the opportunity. So if he was to wish one thing for you, for everybody listening to this, it’s that you will tomorrow reach out to a few customers and just have a conversation.

He shared that he had a great interview with the customer experience leader in France and she said one of the benefits of a pandemic is that she used to visit all the customers in France because she could do without traveling. Now, she’s talking to their customers in China, in Brazil, in Canada, because they’re all the same distance away from her now.

Me: That’s true. The French and the Chinese and the Brazilians, it takes that much energy to call each one if you’re calling somebody just the same in France.

Jim agreed and shared that that’s his encouragement to everybody is, reach out to your customers no matter where they are.

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